Comments on: Truth, Justice, and the Academic Way http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/ rock out to the apparatus Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:38:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Lab Lemming http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-3083 Lab Lemming Sun, 13 Aug 2006 04:30:41 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-3083 Agreed. Agreed.

]]> By: John Vidale http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-3021 John Vidale Wed, 09 Aug 2006 06:17:29 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-3021 There's an overwhelming consensus already to eradicate unequal treatment. No one speaks out in favor of unequal treatment, except of course affirmative action. However, it is far from obvious what is unequal, and how to fix it. Nor is it obvious that equal treatment will lead to proportionate representation. There’s an overwhelming consensus already to eradicate unequal treatment. No one speaks out in favor of unequal treatment, except of course affirmative action.

However, it is far from obvious what is unequal, and how to fix it. Nor is it obvious that equal treatment will lead to proportionate representation.

]]> By: Lab Lemming http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2996 Lab Lemming Tue, 08 Aug 2006 02:10:14 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2996 There is an important difference, however, between "leading to a disproportionate representation" and "treating in an unequal manner." Achieving a consensus to rectify the second situation would hopefuly be easier than the first, but if the second is fixed, the first might just disappear. There is an important difference, however, between “leading to a disproportionate representation” and “treating in an unequal manner.” Achieving a consensus to rectify the second situation would hopefuly be easier than the first, but if the second is fixed, the first might just disappear.

]]> By: John Vidale http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2982 John Vidale Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:53:05 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2982 yes, that's what I meant, "old-school" and "the way things have been done for decades" leads to the current state of disproportionate representation of the genders. yes, that’s what I meant, “old-school” and “the way things have been done for decades” leads to the current state of disproportionate representation of the genders.

]]> By: Lab Lemming http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2979 Lab Lemming Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:10:57 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2979 You left out the part where statistical analyses and hindcasts of "old-school merit-only judgements" show a gender-related bias. In many ways, this is the stickiest part of the problem. You left out the part where statistical analyses and hindcasts of “old-school merit-only judgements” show a gender-related bias.

In many ways, this is the stickiest part of the problem.

]]> By: John Vidale http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2961 John Vidale Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:22:57 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2961 It's not really your question, but my comment on this subject would be this: The ideal process for formulating policies draws on the faculty for the areas in which they are the experts, and elicits their approval and co-operation for the resulting policies. However, some of the decisions are political rather than scientific, and faculty are notoriously difficult to tell how to behave politically. If old-school faculty want to judge strictly on merit, as defined by the way things have been done for decades, they will do so, no matter how many times someone offers them "Why so slow" or some other more modern view of the problems. In brief, one can ask all the profs what they should be done, but many will not like many of the answers they hear, and movement toward consensus is NOT assured. It’s not really your question, but my comment on this subject would be this:

The ideal process for formulating policies draws on the faculty for the areas in which they are the experts, and elicits their approval and co-operation for the resulting policies.

However, some of the decisions are political rather than scientific, and faculty are notoriously difficult to tell how to behave politically.

If old-school faculty want to judge strictly on merit, as defined by the way things have been done for decades, they will do so, no matter how many times someone offers them “Why so slow” or some other more modern view of the problems.

In brief, one can ask all the profs what they should be done, but many will not like many of the answers they hear, and movement toward consensus is NOT assured.

]]> By: Dr. Shellie http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2959 Dr. Shellie Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:56:45 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2959 John, if I am reading you right, you are saying that you like to leave the formulation of affirmative action policies to people who know what they are doing, but also that there is a possibility that faculty may downgrade women's CV's to compensate for overly-agressive affirmative action policies. I wonder whether the relegation of diversity/affirmative action/multicultural issues and discussions to Diversity Officers/administrators and the like, without active engagement of the faculty in creating policy, doesn't contribute to affirmative action backlash. (Informally speaking: professors see it as "some nonsense from the diversity office, etc." rather than as something they had a stake in.) Certainly I have seen a similar division in government labs. John, if I am reading you right, you are saying that you like to leave the formulation of affirmative action policies to people who know what they are doing, but also that there is a possibility that faculty may downgrade women’s CV’s to compensate for overly-agressive affirmative action policies. I wonder whether the relegation of diversity/affirmative action/multicultural issues and discussions to Diversity Officers/administrators and the like, without active engagement of the faculty in creating policy, doesn’t contribute to affirmative action backlash. (Informally speaking: professors see it as “some nonsense from the diversity office, etc.” rather than as something they had a stake in.) Certainly I have seen a similar division in government labs.

]]> By: John Vidale http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2952 John Vidale Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:42:29 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2952 LL Thanks, I'm probably a bit more careful about image than most as I use my real name. John LL

Thanks, I’m probably a bit more careful about image than most as I use my real name.

John

]]> By: Lab Lemming http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2943 Lab Lemming Sun, 06 Aug 2006 09:07:05 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2943 JV, I apologize if such an interpretation is apparent. I was still referring to local area seismologists. Yami, The only expectation that society has for grad students is that they starve. JV,
I apologize if such an interpretation is apparent. I was still referring to local area seismologists.

Yami,
The only expectation that society has for grad students is that they starve.

]]> By: yami http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2937 yami Sun, 06 Aug 2006 02:12:31 +0000 http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/03/truth-justice-and-the-academic-way/#comment-2937 I don't feel a need for female role models, per se - and as John points out, there are some around if I do. My personal issues re: gender right now are mostly to do with teasing out the ways I've internalized social expectations, humdrum stuff most suitable for close friends, or a therapist if things get dire. I imagine one could devise survey questions to identify women who've experienced intense sexism, and then exclude them from your longitudinal study. But I doubt there are easy bright lines. I don’t feel a need for female role models, per se - and as John points out, there are some around if I do. My personal issues re: gender right now are mostly to do with teasing out the ways I’ve internalized social expectations, humdrum stuff most suitable for close friends, or a therapist if things get dire.

I imagine one could devise survey questions to identify women who’ve experienced intense sexism, and then exclude them from your longitudinal study. But I doubt there are easy bright lines.

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