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	<title>Comments on: My Identity is a List of Links</title>
	<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/</link>
	<description>rock out to the apparatus</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 03:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dr. Shellie :: Snubbed by Zuska! :: August :: 2006</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3341</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Shellie :: Snubbed by Zuska! :: August :: 2006</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3341</guid>
		<description>[...] Congratulations to Zuska, who has moved to ScienceBlogs. Sadly, Dr. Shellie has fallen off the Blogroll. What, am I not at least as much of a &#34;feminist-y womanist-y science and engineering blog&#34; as Dr. Chuck and Inky Circus (though yami out-feministed me with ease by being able to casually toss off the line, &#34;I&#8217;ve done most of my thinking about socially-foisted identity in the context of trans allyship&#34;)? Bah. Perhaps this is retaliation for accidentally sending SEVEN duplicate emails asking to be added the first time (radio blogs has a very slow response time, unfortunately)? All 25 of my loyal readers are encouraged to head on over and put in a word for me. (Or 24. I think one of them is Zuska.)      Comments &#187; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Congratulations to Zuska, who has moved to ScienceBlogs. Sadly, Dr. Shellie has fallen off the Blogroll. What, am I not at least as much of a &quot;feminist-y womanist-y science and engineering blog&quot; as Dr. Chuck and Inky Circus (though yami out-feministed me with ease by being able to casually toss off the line, &quot;I&#8217;ve done most of my thinking about socially-foisted identity in the context of trans allyship&quot;)? Bah. Perhaps this is retaliation for accidentally sending SEVEN duplicate emails asking to be added the first time (radio blogs has a very slow response time, unfortunately)? All 25 of my loyal readers are encouraged to head on over and put in a word for me. (Or 24. I think one of them is Zuska.)      Comments &raquo; [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: yami</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3146</link>
		<dc:creator>yami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 02:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3146</guid>
		<description>Changeseeker: thanks for the response :)

I always think the best conversations are the ones where you have to stop often to digest. Which is to say, it might be a bit before I can respond to your response...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Changeseeker: thanks for the response <img src='http://greengabbro.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I always think the best conversations are the ones where you have to stop often to digest. Which is to say, it might be a bit before I can respond to your response&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Changeseeker</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3144</link>
		<dc:creator>Changeseeker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 01:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3144</guid>
		<description>Sorry it's taken me so long to comment on your very interesting and thought-provoking response to my post.  What I was getting at in the paragraph you cite (and you are &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;so&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; right that I needed to be clearer about what I mean by identity) is that I am calling for a paradigm shift by reminding us that "race" is a socially-constructed, political notion while privilege is a system of practices.  I can seek to reject privilege when it is apparent to me.  (I will address this idea in Part 2.)  What I was shooting for was to suggest that in order for privilege to be apparent to me so that I can reject it, I have to be able to recognize it (a la comment #7) as a response to a socially-constructed, political notion based on NO actual deserved quality.  Whiteness perceives itself as deserving.  European-American individuals, on the other hand, have no basis to perceive themselves as any more deserving than any other ethnic group on the planet.

Now, obviously, I know that daily practice at every level in U.S. society privileges European-Americans as "White" with or without their conscious awareness, admission, or acknowledgment, let alone any embarrassment or guilt.  And yes, the first step is an ever-increasing awareness of this functional reality.

&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;But&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; this functional reality is based on (according to the UNESCO study) a "social myth."  The realization of "race" as a myth in no way mitigates the damage done by its perpetuation as a concept.  It just makes it that much more unconscionable or even heinous, while being totally ridiculous.  How can a person think they deserve privilege because of their skin tone?  If there was any sense to this, I would lose privilege in direct proportion to the sun tan I've been getting.

I don't tell people "I'm not White."  For exactly the reason you've brought up.  It's not immediately understandable as a statement given where most people in the U.S. (on all sides of the issue) reside.  What I do is tell people that "Whiteness" is a meaningless social construction devised for the purpose of exploiting people of color for the enrichment of people that look like me.  (Again, I might have and probably do have African heritage--as many people who look like me do--but I still get the benefit of "White" privilege, as long as I don't tell people "I'm Black.")

There is no need to abandon group identity.  Each of us belong to many groups and group identity is short hand (a code) for understanding another individual's experience/reality/self-perception.  The difficulty has never been "difference" per se.  It is the fact that we declare difference and then socially impose an entirely arbitrary hierarchy on it (men over women, "White" people over people of color, etc.).  Then, those who find themselves privileged by this hierarchy imagine that they are indeed &lt;i&gt;better&lt;/i&gt; than those "beneath" them on the ladder and therein lies the problem.

When I use the term "people that look like me," I am challenging listeners to remember that they can't make simple sense of "racial" difference without my complicity.  So I don't say "I'm not White."  I just choose not to identify myself using that term, but rather create a series of teachable moments related to "race."

I know that most European-Americans are not prepared to do  this at this time.  Nevertheless, what I was nudging them towards in my post was the possibility of considering that their "race" is a "social myth" deserving no privilege and that keeping that idea foremost in their minds at all times will move mountains in their lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry it&#8217;s taken me so long to comment on your very interesting and thought-provoking response to my post.  What I was getting at in the paragraph you cite (and you are <b><i>so</i></b> right that I needed to be clearer about what I mean by identity) is that I am calling for a paradigm shift by reminding us that &#8220;race&#8221; is a socially-constructed, political notion while privilege is a system of practices.  I can seek to reject privilege when it is apparent to me.  (I will address this idea in Part 2.)  What I was shooting for was to suggest that in order for privilege to be apparent to me so that I can reject it, I have to be able to recognize it (a la comment #7) as a response to a socially-constructed, political notion based on NO actual deserved quality.  Whiteness perceives itself as deserving.  European-American individuals, on the other hand, have no basis to perceive themselves as any more deserving than any other ethnic group on the planet.</p>
<p>Now, obviously, I know that daily practice at every level in U.S. society privileges European-Americans as &#8220;White&#8221; with or without their conscious awareness, admission, or acknowledgment, let alone any embarrassment or guilt.  And yes, the first step is an ever-increasing awareness of this functional reality.</p>
<p><b><i>But</i></b> this functional reality is based on (according to the UNESCO study) a &#8220;social myth.&#8221;  The realization of &#8220;race&#8221; as a myth in no way mitigates the damage done by its perpetuation as a concept.  It just makes it that much more unconscionable or even heinous, while being totally ridiculous.  How can a person think they deserve privilege because of their skin tone?  If there was any sense to this, I would lose privilege in direct proportion to the sun tan I&#8217;ve been getting.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t tell people &#8220;I&#8217;m not White.&#8221;  For exactly the reason you&#8217;ve brought up.  It&#8217;s not immediately understandable as a statement given where most people in the U.S. (on all sides of the issue) reside.  What I do is tell people that &#8220;Whiteness&#8221; is a meaningless social construction devised for the purpose of exploiting people of color for the enrichment of people that look like me.  (Again, I might have and probably do have African heritage&#8211;as many people who look like me do&#8211;but I still get the benefit of &#8220;White&#8221; privilege, as long as I don&#8217;t tell people &#8220;I&#8217;m Black.&#8221;)</p>
<p>There is no need to abandon group identity.  Each of us belong to many groups and group identity is short hand (a code) for understanding another individual&#8217;s experience/reality/self-perception.  The difficulty has never been &#8220;difference&#8221; per se.  It is the fact that we declare difference and then socially impose an entirely arbitrary hierarchy on it (men over women, &#8220;White&#8221; people over people of color, etc.).  Then, those who find themselves privileged by this hierarchy imagine that they are indeed <i>better</i> than those &#8220;beneath&#8221; them on the ladder and therein lies the problem.</p>
<p>When I use the term &#8220;people that look like me,&#8221; I am challenging listeners to remember that they can&#8217;t make simple sense of &#8220;racial&#8221; difference without my complicity.  So I don&#8217;t say &#8220;I&#8217;m not White.&#8221;  I just choose not to identify myself using that term, but rather create a series of teachable moments related to &#8220;race.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know that most European-Americans are not prepared to do  this at this time.  Nevertheless, what I was nudging them towards in my post was the possibility of considering that their &#8220;race&#8221; is a &#8220;social myth&#8221; deserving no privilege and that keeping that idea foremost in their minds at all times will move mountains in their lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3052</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3052</guid>
		<description>Because that is how it was preached at me in college?

Because its usurptation by political propagandists and marketers makes no concession to the individual?

Because, in my experience, people who consern themselves with the attributes of a group have trouble not forming preconceptions about people whom they associate with said group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because that is how it was preached at me in college?</p>
<p>Because its usurptation by political propagandists and marketers makes no concession to the individual?</p>
<p>Because, in my experience, people who consern themselves with the attributes of a group have trouble not forming preconceptions about people whom they associate with said group.</p>
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		<title>By: yami</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3048</link>
		<dc:creator>yami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 03:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3048</guid>
		<description>I'm totally puzzled by your dichotomy here, how does thinking/talking about the effects of group identity constructs prevent one from also treating people as individuals? What's dehumanizing about a critical  examination of race?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m totally puzzled by your dichotomy here, how does thinking/talking about the effects of group identity constructs prevent one from also treating people as individuals? What&#8217;s dehumanizing about a critical  examination of race?</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3047</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 02:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3047</guid>
		<description>â€œLetâ€™s just treat everyone as individuals, la la la!â€ has a shitty track record. 

Is it any worse than the alternatives?  

Every attempt I know of to dehumanize people for the cause of good has been co-opted by the forces of evil, profit, or laziness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>â€œLetâ€™s just treat everyone as individuals, la la la!â€ has a shitty track record. </p>
<p>Is it any worse than the alternatives?  </p>
<p>Every attempt I know of to dehumanize people for the cause of good has been co-opted by the forces of evil, profit, or laziness.</p>
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		<title>By: yami</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3045</link>
		<dc:creator>yami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3045</guid>
		<description>No, you don't. Treating people as individuals is always the best answer/goal; that's not in question.

The immediate question is whether I am &lt;em&gt;capable&lt;/em&gt; of abandoning group identity, given that I have at best limited control over how I am pigeonholed by others, or whether it's a sort of shadow that I'm just stuck with. 

The broader question is how best to deal with social constructs that hamper one's ability to treat others as individuals. "Let's just treat everyone as individuals, la la la!" has a shitty track record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, you don&#8217;t. Treating people as individuals is always the best answer/goal; that&#8217;s not in question.</p>
<p>The immediate question is whether I am <em>capable</em> of abandoning group identity, given that I have at best limited control over how I am pigeonholed by others, or whether it&#8217;s a sort of shadow that I&#8217;m just stuck with. </p>
<p>The broader question is how best to deal with social constructs that hamper one&#8217;s ability to treat others as individuals. &#8220;Let&#8217;s just treat everyone as individuals, la la la!&#8221; has a shitty track record.</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3043</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3043</guid>
		<description>Do I get voted off the craton for suggesting that you abandon group identity all together, and actually take the time to get to know the people with whom you intereact as individuals?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do I get voted off the craton for suggesting that you abandon group identity all together, and actually take the time to get to know the people with whom you intereact as individuals?</p>
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		<title>By: yami</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3042</link>
		<dc:creator>yami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 22:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3042</guid>
		<description>... and: I was totally thinking, in this post, about racial classification as something that's mainly done by white people. &lt;strong&gt;D'oh!&lt;/strong&gt;

Anyway. The trick of affirming one's European-American ethnic identity while refusing any racial identity might help some people tone down or erase their practice of Whiteness; I'm not sure it would for me, or at least, not now. I think I'm at a place where I need to spend more energy noticing and acknowledging the ways in which I practice Whiteness, before I can successfully strip them away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; and: I was totally thinking, in this post, about racial classification as something that&#8217;s mainly done by white people. <strong>D&#8217;oh!</strong></p>
<p>Anyway. The trick of affirming one&#8217;s European-American ethnic identity while refusing any racial identity might help some people tone down or erase their practice of Whiteness; I&#8217;m not sure it would for me, or at least, not now. I think I&#8217;m at a place where I need to spend more energy noticing and acknowledging the ways in which I practice Whiteness, before I can successfully strip them away.</p>
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		<title>By: yami</title>
		<link>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3041</link>
		<dc:creator>yami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 22:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://greengabbro.net/2006/08/08/my-identity-is-a-list-of-links/#comment-3041</guid>
		<description>Well, I think what Changeseeker is trying to describe is more like &lt;a href="http://profacero.blogspot.com/2006/08/why-i-am-mexican.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Professor Zero's story&lt;/a&gt; than a simple semantic game:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Later in the evening, I told this story to a Creole neighbor. Yes, I know, he said. They could not figure out which race to classify you as, because you do not seem to have a race. If you want to maintain any particular racial classification, you must also maintain the behavior and attitude the people who see you believe correspond to that classification. You look white, and you appear to have descended from a mixture of ethnicities. But race is not just a visual marker of difference, it is a practice.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I think what Changeseeker is trying to describe is more like <a href="http://profacero.blogspot.com/2006/08/why-i-am-mexican.html" rel="nofollow">Professor Zero&#8217;s story</a> than a simple semantic game:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Later in the evening, I told this story to a Creole neighbor. Yes, I know, he said. They could not figure out which race to classify you as, because you do not seem to have a race. If you want to maintain any particular racial classification, you must also maintain the behavior and attitude the people who see you believe correspond to that classification. You look white, and you appear to have descended from a mixture of ethnicities. But race is not just a visual marker of difference, it is a practice.
</p></blockquote>
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