Comments on: Fourth of July: I’m Doin’ It Wrong

By: yami

yami — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:41:49 +0000

Hee hee, yes, those are utterly genius.

I actually started a LiveJournal community called lolscience expressly for that sort of thing, though it hasn’t gotten many posts lately.

By: Ron Schott

Ron Schott — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:43:17 +0000

Oops… just realized it’s probably not a cat macro if it lacks a cat. (Does that make it a fault macro?) Anyhow, I hope you still enjoy the humor of it.

By: Ron Schott

Ron Schott — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:37:15 +0000

Eschewing politics in favor of geology, have you seen the cat macro I CAN HAS FAULTLINE?

By: Andrew Ironwood

Andrew Ironwood — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:39:17 +0000

I’d go with Sabine’s idea, but more like in the graphic novel Watchmen or the episode “The Architects of Fear” from the old Outer Limits series (if I should disappear suddenly, you’ll know I’ve gotten too close to someone’s nefarious plans…)

By: Sabine

Sabine — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 18:30:36 +0000

Alien invasion. That’s what it would take. Just like in “Independance Day”. (j/k)

By: Brian

Brian — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 17:30:33 +0000

Speaking idealistically, it would be great to have a global ‘patriotism’ or pride. I wonder what it would take for that? My pessimistic side thinks it would have to be an unfolding disaster (natural or otherwise) of truly global proportions.

I would agree w/ you Yami regarding the “attachment” aspect…that is a good point.

By: Sabine

Sabine — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:14:25 +0000

I’ve never felt attached to that ideal either. I guess being raised in Indian Country by an Indian mother, that typical sense of Patriotism just wasn’t instilled in me. I grew up with ear fulls of stories of ancestors dying on the Trail of Tears, and hiding from American soldiers in swamps. I’m glad I live here, it’s just a little different from my perspective.

That lolcat was priceless.

By: yami

yami — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:54:52 +0000

Sorry, Brian, didn’t mean to attribute “cultivation” to you - I was just riffing on the idea that if it’s important, would we ever need to prevent ourselves from losing it? Perhaps that margarita lasted longer than I realized

I’m not trying to say that patriotism or national pride is necessarily bad, it’s just not something I’ve ever felt very attached to (I’ve even felt it now and then, but those feelings have never been important to me, if that makes any sense). Lack of national pride has never stopped me from caring about what is happening, though - and pride for home is certainly something I can understand. It’s the link between “home” and “nation” that eludes me.

Multi-ethnic empires, and politically divided cultural territories, have both worked OK historically as alternatives to the nation-state (NB: I’m using nation-state in a somewhat technical sense here).

By: Brian

Brian — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:52:06 +0000

I don’t think my comment can be translated into me wanting to “carefully cultivate patriotism”….I’m not really sure what you mean by that. I don’t think national pride is something that’s cultivated in that proactive sense. I think it is more of a reactive thing.

Anyhow…I would hope some national pride would serve to keep the citizens aware, involved, and active in what is happening with their country. Perhaps the pride isn’t for their country per say, but for their home and for how they want to live. I think a little pride in this way makes people do something about it instead of just pissin’ and moaning or emigrating.

When I meet people from other nations and they speak about their pride for their country, what they like about it, what they don’t, I think that’s great. It’s a sense of community, but at a larger scale.

But let’s not fall into the ubiquitous all-or-nothing discourse…of course when simple pride morphs into dangerous fanaticism, whether it be for a nation, a religion, a leader, etc., this leads down a dangerous path. And that’s where some of the most shrill right-wingers are.

Do you think it’s possible to be both proud and disgusted at the same time? Do you think it has to be all or nothing? That if I express any level of pride, then i’m a fascist? Or, if I express any level of criticism, then I’m a traitor? This is where i’m afraid political discourse has gone.

What’s the practical alternative to the democratic nation-state?

By: yami

yami — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 06:18:52 +0000

What function do you think national pride serves, Brian? I can see how it’s useful for international soccer matches, but I’m not sure the World Cup would be such a huge loss to the planet that we need to carefully cultivate patriotism for it.